Rework de l'immunité magique + quelques autres choses

[Minoth]

Bonjour,

Je propose un rework de l'immunité magique :

• Je propose que ce sort, une fois lancé, immunise totalement le lanceur contre les sorts offensifs.

• La durée du sort serait quelque chose comme 1 seconde par niveau de magie (donc une minute pour un niveau 60, deux pour un 120...).

• A chaque sort offensif reçu, la durée de l'immunité chute d'autant de secondes que les dégats/montant de mana/etc qu'on aurait du recevoir (si on devait se prendre un -30 en affaiblir, ça réduit l'immunité de 30 secondes, un drain de 50, ça réduit de 50 secondes, etc).

• La perception aurait ici un rôle d'endurance sur cette réduction de durée d'immunité (par exemple, 30 de perception = 15 "d'endurance", et si l'immunité devait bloquer un -20 en affaiblir et donc perdre 20 secondes d'efficacité, elle ne perdrait que 20-15=5 secondes).

Je propose ensuite que la vision octroyée par le sort de vision et le médaillon de vision soit fonction de la perception, ce qui justifierait un peu plus le terme "perception".
Plus on a de perception, plus la vision est lointaine (jusqu'à un maximum de la vision sans invisibilité).
J'aurais bien proposé que le niveau de magie influe aussi là dessus, mais je ne saurais pas comment.

Je sais que ça remettrait en cause un rework antérieur de l'immunité magique et de la perception, mais je propose quand même ça me tient à coeur

[Vulcann]

Bonne idée Minoth, j'approuve l'idée. D'autant plus que tu as bien pensé à l'équilibrage tout en essayant de rendre le sort plus intuitif par rapport à son nom.

[Crowley]

Idée ajoutée au listing

[Lison]

J'aime bien l'idée, l'immunité par définition est censé protéger donc le fait qu'elle puisse être détournée n'est pas si logique.

Elle devrait effectivement protéger totalement, la durée du sort me parait correcte pour 1 sec/niveau.

Pour que le sort ne soit pas "abusé", le fait de perdre en seconde ce que l'on devait perdre en vie/mana me parait cohérente, l'idée de la perception qui entre jeu aussi.

Je suis totalement pour !

[Mercantilias]

Pour le coup j'ai pas grand chose à dire, globalement ça me parait bien pensé, et surtout ça suit l'idée de base qui consiste à faire évoluer les sorts en fonction du niveau de magie.

Actuellement l'immunité magique a une efficacité mais il est vrai qu'après essai on constate que même avec un gros niveau d'écart entre deux opposants, il n'y a pas de différence flagrante.

Je suis globalement pour sur le fond, la forme comme toujours elle peut se discuter

[Phedre]

C'est une bonne idée. Cela enrichit le système de combat magique entre joueurs. Sur la forme, c'est plus attrayant que le système actuel, sur le fond, je ne pense pas que cela provoque de déséquilibres notables. A tester

[Erthasy]

Je suis totalement pour, actuellement l'immune et assez cheat, j'avais tester une fois avec azlok qui a pas mal de lvl en plus, et il m'a jamais toucher a l'affaiblir ni aux drains, l'idée de minoth et logique...
J'Approuve

[Aveeno]

Does perception not already increase visibility? Maybe the area you are training in is always dark, or because it's "night" outside & inside & not "daytime" so it's harder to see? I'm fine with perception how it is.

As for magic immunity and perception, I'm totally against the idea. This sounds like a nerf for magic, instead of a balance. Literally in the past month there has been 3 threads to slightly make magic a bit more viable and balanced like other skills. (Put the links below)

https://www.landes-eternelles.com/phpBB ... 66&t=35356

https://www.landes-eternelles.com/phpBB ... 66&t=35366

https://www.landes-eternelles.com/phpBB ... 66&t=35468


From my understanding, this is how magic works:

- Increase your level in magic = stronger spells, BUT also other players damage you for less, and higher chance to dodge!

- The higher perception you have the higher chance you dodge a magic attack aswell.

- There is already a spell called magic resistance, which decreases damage say by 10.. (Don't forget magic damage in pvp is already halved, BUT necro and A/D is not (Nice logic) and cost 1 magic essence and like 8 mana. Combine that with armor that gives magic resistance, red and black.. and a mage is useless, not that they were viable to begin with.



Now.. lets move on to perception itself..

This is how perception is calculated for a mage that deals damage, im sure everyone is aware of manavore robes. (Anyone wearing these robes benefit)

https://gyazo.com/3911665db8033abc489b12f0c96187d7

What you are suggesting Minoth would literally negate everything and then SOME that the robes would offer.


Now let us see a typical build of an A/D fighter and how much perception they would have? Here's a screenshot of a fighter not private stats, but I blocked out the name.

https://gyazo.com/a37839546a2ef63a1d32a5632423dcd2

They already have 22 perception.. and 100+ magic, magic is easy to get because all creatures above demon lapin pretty much have mana, so you drain unlimited.


Perception.. oh perception my good friend, where have you been? Let us see the past 2-3 updates that happened in regards of perception & magic, since it is the topic of the thread.

"On the other hand, the most powerful spells in magic (shock wave, earthquake and area healing) now require a Master nexus."

so yeah, 2 more pick points now if you want to do these spells.

"Mine: 10 classic damage + bonus related to engineering level and reactivity"

What gives perception, but also reactivity? Instinct. What does every fighter have? Reactivity & instinct at higher levels. (You know.. AGILITY ) Fighter is clearly the most dominate and superior style on LE. That was w/o the mines and the extra damage they offer, but to make them even greater & stronger makes 0 sense to me. We must be very careful and try to keep things balanced.

Speaking of balance, always willing to offer my services or testing if need be


Therefore, it sounds to me like this can be an issue of getting higher magic? I understand it is the least profitable vs A/D & Necro. Though everything takes time. But, on a real note.. I would suggest training with helmet of life or crown of life. (Would negate any death (other than necro), yes it's costly but it's the price you pay for being at a good spawn, most PK spawns are x3 or really small) I feel as though this thread only appeared after the vision medallion took a hit. I don't understand how scary dragash or Kramak can be since they don't catch me doing A/D. But all i know is that i've heard stories.. and if you think magic is strong? Wait until you see Necro.

[Phedre]

This is how perception is calculated for a mage that deals damage, im sure everyone is aware of manavore robes. (Anyone wearing these robes benefit)

https://gyazo.com/3911665db8033abc489b12f0c96187d7

What you are suggesting Minoth would literally negate everything and then SOME that the robes would offer.

The manavore robes doesn't increase magic damages against players. It only works on monsters. Saying that I do not understand why Minoth's proposition would negate everything about it

[Aveeno]

This is how perception is calculated for a mage that deals damage, im sure everyone is aware of manavore robes. (Anyone wearing these robes benefit)

https://gyazo.com/3911665db8033abc489b12f0c96187d7

What you are suggesting Minoth would literally negate everything and then SOME that the robes would offer.

The manavore robes doesn't increase magic damages against players. It only works on monsters. Saying that I do not understand why Minoth's proposition would negate everything about it

Funny you say that, because it only validates my point as to how weak mage is. I thought it did, the fact that it does not, yet you want perception to absorb damage with magic immunity? Makes no sense.

[Phedre]

Well, I don't believe that is truly fair for any warrior to receives the same damages that monsters receives (including magic resistance) by a high level mage. To loose around 80 life points every second (for the cheapest cost ever : 4 simple essences) is clearly unbalanced.

Now, what Minoth is proposing is to replace the dodging effect of offensive spell given by Perception (Perception/2 = % dodging effect --> for instance 40 perception = 20% of chance to avoid a spell) by a natural magic resistance against offensive spell (Minoth's proposition : Perception/2 = magic resistance --> with 40 perception, I would reduce naturally by 20 any enemy's spell). I don't see any iniquity based on that.

[Aveeno]

Well, I don't believe that is truly fair for any warrior to receives the same damages that monsters receives (including magic resistance) by a high level mage. To loose around 80 life points every second (for the cheapest cost ever : 4 simple essences) is clearly unbalanced.

Warriors acutally do receive that.. infact warriors receive more magic resistance than mages themselves. Lookup Ozh for example, he is a top 5 mage probably? Yet he has less perception than warriors do at around his total. Why? Because all fighters get intelligence & instinct after maxing force/agility. Nobody does max aura, and if they do, they go to mysteriors and switch the extra mana for health.

Now, what Minoth is proposing is to replace the dodging effect of offensive spell given by Perception (Perception/2 = % dodging effect --> for instance 40 perception = 20% of chance to avoid a spell) by a natural magic resistance against offensive spell (Minoth's proposition : Perception/2 = magic resistance --> with 40 perception, I would reduce naturally by 20 any enemy's spell). I don't see any iniquity based on that.

You see the issue here? You would do that, but you are the #1 mage, with a very strict mage build (Even then you would still lose to a warrior or necro). It's kind of unfair to compare the #1 player in this example, have to think of the players overall. It's like if I brought up Sindy since he's the highest A/D , or Zatochi for necro.

Minoth did some testing yesterday and i was there, perception acutally does need to be slighty fixed in a sense that you can't see mobs at a distance. Only makes sense for perception to increase the distance one can see.

[Phedre]

Well, I don't believe that is truly fair for any warrior to receives the same damages that monsters receives (including magic resistance) by a high level mage. To loose around 80 life points every second (for the cheapest cost ever : 4 simple essences) is clearly unbalanced.

Warriors acutally do receive that.. infact warriors receive more magic resistance than mages themselves. Lookup Ozh for example, he is a top 5 mage probably? Yet he has less perception than warriors do at around his total. Why? Because all fighters get intelligence & instinct after maxing force/agility. Nobody does max aura, and if they do, they go to mysteriors and switch the extra mana for health.

In fact, Ozh has chosen to improve his Mana instead of his Perception. This is two different ways of building a mage character.
And you're right, I'm not the best example, because my build is intensively dedicated to magic. Still, even for me as a top magic player, I find it unfair that a #1 can reduce 90 life points each second. I would just have to make a double "affaiblir", then use a diss ring to freeze the opponent who's trying to catch me, then make two other "affaiblir". Cost : almost nothing. Damages : 360 in... 4 seconds.

I believe warriors, mages and summoners are not playing in the same area. This is three differents style of playing, three differents strategy. We can't compare apples and oranges. If a mage has to fight against a warrior, he will loose if he has to play according the rules of warrior's game. Same as a falcon who would like to fight against a snake. He would loose if he has to fight on the floor rather than in the air

It is also true that most of the high level warriors have almost the same Perception than high level mage. Knowing that, the real difference between warriors and mages is the amount of mana, not perception. So, if we want to separate more mages and warriors, we must maybe get focus on Mana instead of Perception. I start to be off topic now...

[Aveeno]

In fact, Ozh has chosen to improve his Mana instead of his Perception. This is two different ways of building a mage character.
And you're right, I'm not the best example, because my build is intensively dedicated to magic. Still, even for me as a top magic player, I find it unfair that a #1 can reduce 90 life points each second. I would just have to make a double "affaiblir", then use a diss ring to freeze the opponent who's trying to catch me, then make two other "affaiblir". Cost : almost nothing. Damages : 360 in... 4 seconds.

You make it sound like it's possible to do 360 damage in 4 seconds, maybe only as a necromancer (Which would literally cost nothing can go naked and just summon). As a mage you need manavore, you need staff, you need your talisman & crown of mana to probably even come close to doing 90 damage, so no it doesn't just cost 4 essence. Alot is at risk here. I would pay to watch you fight the #1 a/d player, you can use mage they can use a/d.

You see as a mage.. when you dont have robes/staff/gear your damage will be reduced slighty, because magic damage pretty much just depends on your magic level, attributes don't do much, even the mana isn't accounted for as max mana when you damage, so what's the point of going high mana build? , BUT a warrior with all the decked out gear a warrior wants, as long as they have high magic they can out damage and kill you easily. Like you said most warriors have higher perception than mages too, so they can dodge magic attacks with it, and absorb more damage than a mage himself? Sounds a bit fishy.

I believe warriors, mages and summoners are not playing in the same area. This is three differents style of playing, three differents strategy. We can't compare apples and oranges. If a mage has to fight against a warrior, he will loose if he has to play according the rules of warrior's game. Same as a falcon who would like to fight against a snake. He would loose if he has to fight on the floor rather than in the air

I agree all 3 playstyles are different, but I believe mage to be the weakest, maybe only in a surprise attack they have a chance to win.

It is also true that most of the high level warriors have almost the same Perception than high level mage. Knowing that, the real difference between warriors and mages is the amount of mana, not perception. So, if we want to separate more mages and warriors, we must maybe get focus on Mana instead of Perception. I start to be off topic now...

Perception has always favored warriors, infact most attributes / advantages (perks) and even in game gear, take capes for example, all instances have really pro a/d capes and swords you can get. Necro has 1 advantage, and an amazing cape, mages uh.. if i remember i'll get back to you but that is off topic aswell

Regardless im not posting here again, i don't mind if the update happend or not (I think the more updates the better for the game, good or bad sooner or later everything gets worked out and somewhat balance), as long as they try to balance other things related to mage (You read the forums Phedre, you know that 3 topics about "balancing/fixing mage issues have been brought up the past month), It would be a shame if this update happend and mages took another hit before being somewhat viable. I'm only being defensive because i play mage too, and although im not #1, i am top 15. I can assure you mage is weak.

[Mysteryys]

L'idée est mauvaise, je comprends même pas qu'on puisse être favorable à une telle idée, je pense que vous ne vous rendez pas compte de niveau de nerf si c'était mis en place ; ça va nous faire revenir au PK d'il y a 15 ans où la magie offensive n'avait pas d'intérêt : l'attaquant vient finalement de réussir à vous supprimer votre immunité?
Prenez une fiole d'éther et vous êtes prêts à pouvoir en remettre 5 (avec les équipées c'est devenu bien plus abordables) ; j'ai réussi à en acheter 10 récemment, donc 30 utilisations, ça laisse le temps de voir venir.

Si c'est nécessaire il y a d'autres moyens de réduire l'utilité de la magie autrement qu'en la démolissant, par exemple en retravaillant le sort "onde de choc".

[Kulguur]

Rien à redire sur ce que explique mysterys, de plus si vous voulez abaissé la magie qui actuellement vous semble forte, vous perdrez toutes présence de mage en PK cela vas de la logique.

[Mercantilias]

Pour répondre à Mysterys, l'idée de base c'est de changer le concept actuel, pour faire simple :

Donner plus de sens au mot "immunité" et en créer une réelle. Il n'as pas été énoncé de détails très précis comme la consommation de mana du sort ou autre.

Bien entendu, il faudra évaluer à coup d'essais en situation réelle le bon équilibre pour que la magie ne soit pas totalement nerfée comme tu le dis.
Dans tous les cas, la magie est actuellement en ébauche sur plusieurs points. Il faut donc la revoir exactement comme ont été revus le combat et la nécromancie.

Reste à présenter des arguments sur ces modifications, ici en l'occurrence sur l'immunité magique et pas seulement énoncer le fait que l'idée est mauvaise sans apporter d'arguments ni même le démontrer.

[Mysteryys]

Prenons un mage défenseur de niveau 120 avec 40 de perception et un mage attaquant avec 140 de magie, le premier va probablement prendre du 25 (45 affaiblir - 20 via la perception) en moins sur son immunité magique donc pouvoir environ tanker 5 sorts à chaque immunité magique lancée.

Pour des affaiblirs, l'attaquant va donc devoir dépenser 80 de mana pour retirer l'immunité magique du joueur, côté défenseur celui lui coutera sûrement dans la trentaine de points de mana ; ajouté à ça que le défenseur peut relancer une immunité magique à la fin de celle ci, et on voit vite par ce petit exemple qu'il est dans la plupart des cas contre productif d'essayé d'enlever l'immunité magique du défenseur.

Pourquoi revenir en quelque sorte à ce qui existait après toutes les avancées sur le développement de la magie depuis des années ?
Pourquoi nerf la magie alors qu'on a vu personne s'en plaindre ?

Je réitère, à mon sens ça va tuer la magie une telle implémentation, ça vaut pas vraiment le coup de chercher à équilibrer une idée qui est mauvaise dès le départ.